CONSTITUTIONAL TREATMENT – Talks on Classical Homeopathy Part 3 – Discussion with Geroge Vithoulkas
George: If you are not able to see underneath to the next remedy, you cannot call it a disruption. A disruption is always when there is no improvement When you see a general improvement, you cannot call that a disruption. What is a cure? What is better? You call better something which is better. It may mean something like he was using 10 handkerchiefs, but now he is using one or two. So you would say that his catarrh was 80% better. Ina disruption they might say that the catarrh is the same.
Question: So when you clear a case, you will always see some improvement?
George: Yes. Sure. Improvement Definitely. You may see an aggravation in the beginning, but definitely an improvement later.
Question: How about so-called one-sided cases?
George: One-sided cases ? We have some cases like that. Haven’t we had some already ? This is where we give a remedy with very little improvement, but the next remedy is very clear.
Question: There is improvement in a one-sided case ?
George: There is some kind of improvement, yes.
Question: You said something about the remedy bringing them to a certain state of health that then gives them the freedom to make choices. Then as they make choices and gain experiences in life they go through crises which would then bring up a remedy picture that was not there previously.
I asked on this question before, but I thought it might be good to bring it up within the group. Is that new layer just brought up ?
The second part of the question is, “Do you see new layers being laid on in the course of treatment?”
George: Yes. That is a good question. I think I will try to answer it as quickly as possible. What happens actually is that once you bring a person to a certain level, the person considers himself cured and he goes on in life and has his experiences. What you will usually notice are two possibilities: the one possibility is that people will gain experiences which will be useful to them. They will come into crises and come out of them, sorting things out inside themselves. Later they may come with some physical symptoms which are brought about then because of the crises.
Now if the experience was useful and the person has really solved the related issues inside himself, we shall see that the next layer which was not apparent at the time we were originally treating the person, is coming into view. That means that there were three layers, and we treated these two. The third one was not showing clearly. The person goes on into life with experiences which are finally of a type that involve losses through death, illnesses etc. – these are experiences that are evolving the person and experiences that finally bring some kind of extended freedom to the person. What we find from that experience is that the defense mechanism has been strengthened and now he brings out symptomatology which is clearly showing the next layer. Where it was weak before.
You see now how you will notice that and know that. Usually what they will tell you is that you bring them to a state where there is not much symptomatology and they have been relieved and are quite satisfied, but they will say, “There is not enough energy.” This is one question you will get. They will say thar they are not happy with something. They want to be excited and living fully all the time. So it will give you the impression that there is something which is holding back the conflicts usually.
So there is a conflict which is keeping back the energy. Now if that conflict is resolved – and of course conflicts are of many, many kinds – a conflict can be at the moment that you charge your patient. Anything! The emergencies that you have with your parents. Maybe they are too dependent on you. Yet you love them. Or it can be the relationship that you have with your children. They are too independent and you are afraid and want to pull them back, but you think that you are very authoritative and have spoken to them badly, and so there is a conflict. A conflict can be that you are in a relationship which you have been in for a long time and in which you are now bored, but you don’t want to cut it off because there is insecurity. You don’t know what you are going to do next, because you don’t want to have the other person any more.
The more we advance in the ritual spiritual level, the more these conflicts take the form of not hurting others. In order not to hurt others, you keep up a situation which is taking energies from you. It is a deep conflict and it really takes energies away.
So you see this person and he has colitis and arthritis and skin eruptions and whatever it is, and he is quite okay. But now he is left with these kind of choices and conflicts. When there is a choice, there is a conflict. So what happens ? The person goes on in life and resolves the conflicts. As soon as the conflict is resolved, there is a sense of freedom and an energy rush, and symptomatology.
During that state you will see the next layer coming up. So he may come with a beautiful Calc. So what you saw in the child so quickly, you will see within 5-10 years of right treatment in a grown-up. So they come and you prescribe and then he goes into a fuller life, more free, making new choices and conflicts. You are never going to finish with the conflicts.
Now this is the one case. This is the case where experiences of life are conducive to health. But there is yet another kind. There may be one or two or three layers. You make him more free and you give him more possibilities which he can work with, more abilities, and he is ambitious. He now wants to use this ability quickly. To use these abilities for his own ends – for his own absolutely personal gain. And then he goes into life and meets stresses. These stresses are going to be distracting the destructive to his health. So when he comes into a clash and says, “It is mine”, somebody will say, “No, its not yours”, and there is a big commotion inside. Whoosh! DISEASE In those cases you will not see the next layer coming up. You will see the layer on top.
You will see the picture of a remedy which will not be Cale. You may see Ign. or Ph-ac. You may see remedies which are not so deep which were not showing before.
So actually the energy that was given, was used wrongly and added a layer. Now during this stage you will see the person working for his own ends. A person can work in two directions – to attain money and power. The person is working towards this direction all the time and it brings about a state in which the person is very vital, working very efficiently, but behind it all is a kind of lack or vacuum. There is a lack of deeper serenity, calmness, because he is pushing too much, while actually ignoring his real self. There will be a kind of exhaustion after he has done this. Then you will see qualities coming up which will take more and more space in that person. He will need stimuli. And so on top of the layer which is Sulph., you can put a Nux-v. layer. Stimuli, stimuli, stimuli – coffee, drinking alcohol, sex and then there comes a kind of confusion. Then you become sick and with a new layer. It depends upon how sensitive you are. You may not be sensitive still and you will go deeper into another state eventually – this is much more basic and confused. So there will be Sulph. Ma-v. and then Am-c. In five years you may add up two layers, instead of going under one.
So with the wrong application of ourselves we empty ourselves of the positive qualities and give the upper hand to the negative ones. And there will be a need for stimulation. The organism has to work. We will degenerate. So in this process of going down, we meet a good homoeopath.
So he takes a remedy and again there is a choice for that person. We are giving choices. We are giving possibilities here.
Question: So you might see a person who has been treated even with Calc., who gets better, then goes into another remedy, and suddenly you will see Calc. again ?
George: Yes. That person was given Calc., and then you see Calc back again, and then you see Cor-r., and then you see Nux-v., and then you see whatever it is that is on top.
That is why you will see cases where they will relate symptomatology to you at the age of 20 and it was Calc., and then you see him later and it is another remedy, it is not that he has become better, it is because he has become worse. There is a layer of Cale. and there is the layer of Ma-v. That is the way I see this question.
Actually I wanted to talk to you today about the changes from one remedy to another. What is that? This changing? We say that a person is Nat-m. and then we go after one or two years and we will give Phos. Now what is that person? Nat-m. or Phos.? And what is the meaning of that? Has the person become better or worse ? When is a person better and when is a person worse? What is complementary? When do we say that we have given constitutional treatment? What is constitutional treatment? Is it to give one remedy only?
And also to be able to evaluate the progress of the patient … So you will have to do some thinking on that in relation to these lives as well. An experience comes, and you see more and more cases, you will have to put some thinking into that area You see, you have a case which is Nat-m. and we know in our exposition of the materia medica that we have put apart Nat-m. from Phos. Yet you may see a typical Nat-m. going into a typical Phos. case.
Question: Are you talking about adding on a layer or uncovering a layer after treatment?
George: It is possible that it might be both. But you don’t have the sense that this person is better now. He needs Phos. to feel better. So he is worse because he needs Phos. again, but in general he is worse.
It is interesting to see Nat-m. going into Lyc. – and I have seen this several times. What you will see in such cases, if you had a typical Nat-m. that you have treated, would go into another remedy such as Lyc. or Phos. or Sep. or Apis, but the typical one will have the characteristics of the next layer or remedy which do not go deep into his character. He will have either characteristics which are physical or he will have certain mentalities of the remedy or the essence of the remedy on a lower level, but not on a deep level. I will explain.
You have a typical Nat-m. and one day he may come and tell you after 6-12 months that he has become quite bloated with a lot of gas, that he has difficulty with digestion, for the stool is unformed, and that he now wants to turn to the right side to sleep. In the mornings he is quite tired. You see digestive and liver disturbances with the characteristics of Lyc. Now if a person gives me that history. I will give Lyc. Why? Because I know one more symptom and that Lye. complements Nat-m.
Mother one will want to say that he feels worse between 4 and 8 O’clock. We don’t need to have that because we know that one remedy can run into another and these two are complementary. But the things that he is giving me are not on a mental level. They are mostly on the physical level only. So I would not have the typical Lye. that I have described, because underneath is Nat-m.; underneath is Nat-s.; underneath Sulph. So at the moment when his liver crisis comes, he may need Lyc. But the real constitution behind that is not Lyc.
So do not be misled to think that the person who needs a certain remedy at a certain moment that this is his remedy immediately; that this is a Lyc. No. We gave him Lyc. because of the aggravation of the digestive system, but this person actually behind all this is Cale. or Nat-m.
We give a typical Nat-m. and he develops …if we want typology we would say that this person typically is still a Nat-m.
But at the moment he goes through Lyc., the traits of Nat-m. in his character may be minimized. So we consider that these levels are normal. So we have in that case a Lyc. with a normal mental-emotional level.
This does not always come out true. You may get a Nat-m. who would run into Phos. And he will start having thirst and eating ice-cream, having more bronchial troubles, or he gets colds more easily or he may have upset stomach and gastritis, or whatever is the ailment. Together with this ailment you may see some traces of Phos. Like what? Not so much the fear of death or the mental anxiety about health, which is a deeper level in Phos., but you will see that he becomes very sympathetic. He cannot see people suffering. Where he used to be rather cold towards that when he was a Nat-m., now he will be affected. He used to be able to face that, and now he cannot. And together with the physical ailment, you get some hints on the emotional level of Phos. You give Phos. and the patient becomes more healthy. But basically the person is a Nat-m.
You will see that with Caust. Caust. is a remedy that is also sensitive. It is a remedy that wants justice. A revolutionary. If something is not just, then take off his head. This the attitude of the Caust. Okay ? Now you will get Caust. going into a state of… what ?
George: Staph. That is complementary to Caust. How can you put this together and what do we mean by that?
We mean that when we give Caust., the person at that time was relieved of the Caust. traits and now he is going into more sensitive states where he is more concerned and more sympathetic. He goes towards a pathology, of course, and becomes too much of that, so he comes into a state of Staph. You will not see the typical Staph. of which we spoke in that case. If underneath is Caust. and a person comes into a state of Staph…. If a person is Cause and we have not treated him, and the situation in his family develops in the way that I will relate to you. She is fond of her husband and they have a nice family. And the mother of the husband comes to stay in the house. The man shows some affection to the mother, which is a natural thing. The Caust. feels that she is put into second place. Then there is a commotion and she will not talk, because Caust .will not bring things out into the open, so they keep it all inside and more and more inside, until they reach the state that when she comes to you she will say, “I have vertigo”, or whatever it is, but when you probe into the matter she will break out into crying and tell you that the situation which has been developing in the house is impossible. She will tell you that as soon as the mother-in-law comes into the room she feels suppressed and that she cannot breathe. It is impossible for them to live together in the same house. The mother-in-law has not said anything to this person and she wants to help. But the person does not allow her to help.
By the mere presence of the mother-in-law the woman is completely suppressed. The real remedy is deeper in this case, and it is Coast. On Caust. is a layer which has been put thereby the situation in the home and the way she faces things. And of course the way that she understands things. She will not speak. She will not say one word to the husband about the situation. And then what do you see? Vertigo. The symptomatology has changed. Instead of complaining about the mother, she complains, about the vertigo
Question: Seeing that and treating it with Staph., would there be a more clear Caust. picture ?
George: Yes. This is what has happened. I treated her with Staph. As soon as that went away … she felt that it was much more natural what was happening … then the Caust. state came in. There were repercussions. All of these things are so inter-related. There were severe repercussions during that period of Staph. about the husband not taking care of her and so forth, and becoming indifferent to sex. There was indifference to sex and the orgasm wouldn’t come. There was a closed up feeling and a feeling of being hurt. These people will say that they war t to be just but they also want justice from others. Impossible! We translate justice in our own terms. It does not mean that we are always right.
Question: Sometimes I see someone who appears to be a typical Nat- a really solid Nat-m. So I give them Nat-m. and they go into something like Phos. And it appears that that is what they were when they were younger. But even when they are in that Phos. state] can still see that they are basically a kind of Nat-m.
George: Yes, that is what I say. On the other hand, you may see a typical Phos. that may go to a Nat-m. because it is more open and expressive.
Question: But why is it that they will seem to be a Nat-m. when they started out being Phos. ? Why didn’t they really change ?
George: Probably because of ingrafted ways of behaving in the world which are quite deep and have put a stamp on that person.
Question: Do you mean more than habit ?
George: Yes, more than habit.
Question: You say that Nat-m. can go into Phos. or Lye. and that those are towards health ?
George: It can be, or it can be a new layer. Either of the two.
Question: If it was a situation that D. was describing, where there was a Phos. child, but it then became an adolescent and they had disappointments and love relationships and became a Nat-m. the symptoms that come up from Phos. should be quite on the physical level and not very deep ?
George: Oh yes. On the physical level and Phos. is going to give a boost to their health to a great degree.
After that you will see a person who will feel quite strong for years. But then they have the choices that I was talking about. They go out into life and have choices. They can fall back into Phos. or fall back into Natm. by covering themselves.
Question: It seems to me that the less healthy a person is – the less vital he is – the more drastic the change would be from one remedy image to another and the less stable that Nat-m. would be when he became Phos. and the more like Phos. he would become.
George: That is true. When you have a basic and primitive organism … if we were to treat the Brazilians, the South Americans, the Africans, basically they have physical bodies which are healthy, we would see much more stable results. You see, you give a Phos., and it is finished. Chronic inflammations and terrible things like that will vanish. But natural man is not satisfied with things. There may be five or six generations that are happy and the tenth is going to stop being happy.
Question: Are you implying that these remedies do not really work on the will power? That you are given a choice and the choice can be either towards health or disease and that the vital force is separate from the discriminating, choice-making will power of the human being?
George: Absolutely ! We have energy and we can use it either way. This is used according to our decision – our free will. Free will for me is absolute. Nobody will interfere with the will. And if somebody interferes with free will, I feel it is a bad interference. It keeps somebody from evolving.
If I can tell somebody to do that and impose it upon them, I am withholding their evolution. That is why people with weak wills come under the influence of a person with hypnotic powers who can say, “No, you will do this and it is the right thing”, and they do whatever he thinks is the right thing. Actually that person is withholding their evolution. That is according to my understanding.
Question: This comment on the question which is commonly asked about whether we are interfering with somebody’s karma by taking away that layer. Because we cannot affect the free will, we are not truly affecting their karmic patterns.
George: You see, THEIR karma is to come to us and be treated and be cured at the moment. And if their karma is not to be treated- this is not an excuse for you to practise bad homoeopathy – but if their karma is not lobe well, you will never find the right remedy! Never mind how much you may be trying. This is not an excuse for having failures! (Laughter)
You must try hard because he was sent to you to be cured. You have to apply whatever you know. You cannot judge. I have seen cases of really horrible men who had killed people and behaved in a criminal way. And they were cured. If I had said, “No, I am not going to treat you”, never! Placebo, placebo, placebo. It is not for me to judge their faults. Either they will be cured or not.
You get somebody and you give him the right remedy and after three months he feels so well that bethinks coffee. It counteracts the remedy and after a month he is back. He does this maybe four times and the picture is confused. You cannot see anything to prescribe on anymore. The remedy that was working has no effect anymore.
He then goes away from you. After a few months you find that that person is in hospital. And that is for the next world or maybe the crisis of the hospital will make him feel better and solve all of his problems. He may finally come back to you.
I am relating my experiences and I am not making this up. I was sorry to see that I could help a person and yet he behaved in such a way that he ended up in hospital. He could have avoided that. He took antibiotics and then saw another doctor for another opinion.
Onassis, in order to be killed, had 75 doctors from all over the world. That is true and was told to me by one of his best friends -a patient of mine. He had 75 doctors – some from Japan, from America, from England etc. Some would say to take out the gall-bladder or the spleen or the liver. What was left but to die. Now it is interesting for Onassis that this friend of his – Onassis was suffering with myasthenia. This friend of his – a prominent man in Athens, made an appointment for Onassis a month before he got the flu. The flu went into pneumonia and then he flew to Paris where they have better doctors. It was just one month after this appointment that this man told him, “Go and see George”. He said, “Yes, I must go”, but he was always busy going and coming to Athens. Okay, finally he said to make an appointment in a month. So we knew that Onassis was coming. Then I real in the newspapers that he got the flu. I did not say that I could have cured him, but Onassis had a TREMENDOUS vitality. You remember how the man looked. This is the kind of person that Hike to help. It is good material to work with. And yet his karma was going another way. We am not in the place to …
This rem In me of before the Greek revolution took place to getaway from the Turks, there were schools where people were educated before the revolution came. So in these schools – they called them secret schools – nobody knew about them or gave any money. We are like that. We are preparing for a revolution. The time will come soon. We are not to expect favors.
Question: This is pretty much off the top or what we are talking about. It has to do with homoeopathy and the revolution that is taking place. In a practical sense, what do you see is to happen with the information that you are giving us right now that is being taped and transcribed? And in terms of what other people need to know about homoeopathy, what do you desire in this?
George: That is a good question because 1 would not have talked to you about that. You see I feel that this information which I am now giving to you is only for you and for nobody else.
If it was meant for somebody else, they would be here. If thet informetion again is going to be repeeled, it will lose its validity and power.
You see, there is something -I am giving you words, but in addition I transmit something into you which is a knowledge which is beyond words. I use very few words. I try to describe something and I cannot. I transmit my experience. Now this is another thing than taking big words and transmitting them as well. It is a completely different thing -a different effect. And so I don’t feel that the time is ready for you to use this information unless you have the experience behind you to back it up, and the conviction. You sec, it is my conviction which teaches, not because I want to be convincing, but because I have “seen“ and I know these things to be so. That is what I transmit to you! Together with the knowledge! But if you transmit only the knowledge, people will only shake their heads and say it is nonsense. “W hat is that, what is he talking about ?” So it is better now that we give out a level of homoeopathy which is basic. That is most needed at the moment on a bigger scale. If I was going to write ro the W.H.O. about all of these things, they would never publish the material, / am sure of thet. So what I give them is that which is up to the level of their understanding. If I was flying outside in the clouds I would give the potencies and so forth… .
Question : A man at dinner last night who has been doing the recording of Karl’s talk and yours was complaining about the way that homoeopathy is being explained to the public. His phrase was that “It is not being explained in terms of contemporary reality”, so the people get lost in the stuff. We just have to go into our own language where nobody really understands. He was talking about the way … homoeopathy itself, in his feeling, is that the theory makes good sense but when you try to explain that theory we use ideas which don’t really necessarily make sense to everyone else. They make sense to us, but we do not convey that to their way of understanding.
Question: The vital force, or …
Response: He was thinking about the story of the house and the burglar. He thought that was kind of boring, but he was not talking about the whole picture.
Response: Not the over-all picture of homoeopathy, no, but just the way it was described.
Response: He did not do a whole lot of elaboration or exactly where he was left behind. He also thought that you were a much more vibrant person than you were on tape. He was commenting on that.
Response: So that is a lot of what you were just saying about your gestures conveying.
Question: What do we say to those then who hark and pound at our doors saying “Hue you have been exposed and we want to know. We are committed to homoeopathy and we want this information.” What can we say?
Gcorge: Give them information which is at their own understanding.
Response: And our own understanding. George : Yes.
Response: Yes, that is one thing I can talk about from my experience. You don’t get into too much trouble if you don’t speak beyond your own level of knowledge.
George: Also it is important … for instance, we can make that experience. We give a case to a group of people. And they understand it. Select another group and give a case. They will say, “Yes, maybe.”Select yet another group, and they will say, “It is over my head.”They will say that I am crazy.
So the knowledge given is related to the level in which they understand. But before they have bridged that knowledge and understanding, how are they going to understand? So we have to take it step by step. So give them more of the basic things. Do not give them this kind of information – I advise you not to. It is not the kind of materia medica which is needed for the novice. It is not the case analysis that is going to he enjoyed by these people. Before one can appreciate, one must have knowledge.
People must be sceptical and they have the right to be sceptical. We have to prove to them step by step what we are talking about. If we say that we don’t care that this is the only truth, the absolute truth … then that is no good.
Question : Do you plan to publish these talks ? Or maybe put them into a materia medica?
George: These talks? When the time is right, maybe. Not if it is not right. I will work on them and put them in a shape which is readable.
Question: Three years, five years?
George: I don‘t know. I was planning to publish the first volume about 6-7 years ago. And all of the Greek doctors would ask me when the book was coming. Every time I saw them, they would ask me to talk, talk, talk. (Laughter) I almost got a nervous break-down from it. They wanted more and more material. Really, I almost broke down. I had to declare myself sick for about a month to recover.
Question: Did you take a remedy?
George: A remedy? Yes.
So I had planned today to talk to you about the acids – the Phos-ac., the Mur-ac. and the Pic-ac.
Response: Let’s take a break.
Question: Before we take a break, George, there is an assumption of some of the people in the group and a desire by everybody, that while you are in Athens over the next year, that you would dictate into a tape recorder the essence of a remedy once a month or something like that, so that we could hear that and learn more and more materia medica. Would you speak to the group about your feelings on that ?
George: You see, it is very difficulty for me to speak to the tape. We tried to do it once when B. was there and it came out a lousy project.
B: It was terrible. (Laughter)
Response: But that was only the first try. You have to give yourself more credit.
Question: How about if we take 10 days to train you ?
George: It is difficult.
Question: But everybody has trouble when they first start doing that.
George: The trouble is that I function on a certain level. If I give a talk again on what I have already talked about, I don’t give the talk exactly the same way. I cannot do that. That is the trouble. Whenever I give a speech,/ say something which I think is valid for the moment. I look at faces, and I see whether those people are attending or not attending. and I make it as contemporary as possible. So what will happen with that on tape? Again I get excited. If I see more interest, I will say more things. If I see that you are not interested, I will keep it to myself and become flat.
Response: You could record your material to your Greek doctors and send them to R. and he can translate them. (Laughter)
Response: Most of the Greek doctors know English, so why not record in English?
George: If l would do that, it would cause an upheaval. There would be a revolution. You should sec how many grudges they have now because I am gone.